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Brexit
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Carter
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Joined: 06 Mar 2004
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Location: Get orf moy Laaaaaaaand!

Post Reply with quote
The result of this referendum, for me at least, has made me want more Referenda, not less.

So the first one we get is a slap in my face, but I'm still impressed that I got to have a say for a change, So...oddly the taste isn't as bad as the norm:

1. Voting for a politician
2. not getting who you voted for and
3. for them to go on and vote in your name on laws / make decisions that you don't agree with.

Even though I was on the losing side, it's still the most democratic thing I've been involved with in my lifetime (the AV vote dos't count). It gave power back to people for one day and they used it.

It was the wrong resut imo, but worth it.

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"OH NO! A BOURGEOIS BIG-BOLLOCKED BOILER!!!!! THATS ALL I NEED", Conker The Squirrel, 2001
www.raspberrypi.org
Oi may be from the West Coutry but i'm not a hobbit, a pirate or a farmer me old shagger
Thu Jun 30, 2016 9:38 pm View user's profile Send private message
BuggerLugs
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Post Reply with quote
Please let the English vote on Indyref2

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Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:20 pm View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Carter
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Joined: 06 Mar 2004
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Location: Get orf moy Laaaaaaaand!

Post Reply with quote
BuggerLugs wrote:
Please let the English vote on Indyref2


London English or everywhere else English?

_________________
"OH NO! A BOURGEOIS BIG-BOLLOCKED BOILER!!!!! THATS ALL I NEED", Conker The Squirrel, 2001
www.raspberrypi.org
Oi may be from the West Coutry but i'm not a hobbit, a pirate or a farmer me old shagger
Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:12 am View user's profile Send private message
Tenz
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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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Location: Kent, UK

Post Reply with quote
Carter wrote:
The result of this referendum, for me at least, has made me want more Referenda, not less.

So the first one we get is a slap in my face, but I'm still impressed that I got to have a say for a change, So...oddly the taste isn't as bad as the norm:

1. Voting for a politician
2. not getting who you voted for and
3. for them to go on and vote in your name on laws / make decisions that you don't agree with.

Even though I was on the losing side, it's still the most democratic thing I've been involved with in my lifetime (the AV vote dos't count). It gave power back to people for one day and they used it.

It was the wrong resut imo, but worth it.


The Swiss do it but it probably needs the people to have a clue about what they are voting for. It's expensive to do as well.

We give power to our politicians to act on our behalf and we can get rid of them every few years if they act in a way we don't like. The problem comes when the politicians of the two main parties decide to ignore the wishes of those who vote for them.

Corbyn is standing firm because it was the Labour members who elected him. The disconnect is with the MPs who hate him and so disregard the wishes of the members. Surprise surprise, they get pissed off and don't viote the way they are told like good little sheep. 75% of the Tory party is Eurosceptic and Cameron got elected on his promise of a referendum on Lisbon. Soon as he got in he suddenly turned out to be surprisingly pro-EU and half the party membership fucked off to UKIP.

I think a referendum should be used in rare circumstances but be absolutely required every time they try and give our power away to others.

Handing our sovereignty off to the EU without directly asking us was a fucking disgrace

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Fri Jul 01, 2016 1:09 pm View user's profile Send private message
Carter
BR (Barrel Rank) 6
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Joined: 06 Mar 2004
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Location: Get orf moy Laaaaaaaand!

Post Reply with quote
don't know nearly enough about the Swiss to comment.

I know why we vote the way we do BUT in this day and age it simply isn't enough. And 5 years takes the fucking piss with no way to get rid of your local MP if you wanted to, say for instance if he had used tax payers money to fix his tennis court, or left constituents letters in a public bin or...we you get the idea. Once every 5 years = no accountability, esp in safe seats.

Corbyn, yes he did have the vote of party members - i'm not so sure now. They seem torn between his ideals and the Blairites clinging desperatley to the centre ground (otherwise known as not Labour!) hence the rise of SNP etc.

We didn't hand sovereignty to anyone. Lawmaking powers does not equal sovereignty. Also...ALL EU directives only became laws when they had been debated and voted on by our MPs. Without being ratified they would not become law.

We signed up to the EEC in 1972 and voted in, nationally, shortly there after. The law making issue, that people harp on about, came about as part of the Maarstrict treaty in 1992.

And yes, e shold haev had a national vote on each treaty - I wouldn't disagree with that at all. But sovereignty? Never lost it.

_________________
"OH NO! A BOURGEOIS BIG-BOLLOCKED BOILER!!!!! THATS ALL I NEED", Conker The Squirrel, 2001
www.raspberrypi.org
Oi may be from the West Coutry but i'm not a hobbit, a pirate or a farmer me old shagger
Fri Jul 01, 2016 10:18 pm View user's profile Send private message
Tenz
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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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Post Reply with quote
Sovereignty
ˈsɒvrɪnti/
noun
noun: sovereignty

"supreme power or authority."

So border controls, votes for prisoners, deporting foreign criminals etc. Do we have supreme power or authority over those? Nope, it was given away. Our supreme court is not the ultimate legal authority in the land. We'll have to disagree on this one but for me the law of the land is a major part of sovereignty.

The EEC was a trading bloc. As I wrote above, you do not need a new flag, an anthem and a parliament, and you can bet they want an army, in order to trade freely with other countries.

Blair promised a referendum and didn't deliver, Brown did the same, Cameron gave a cast-iron guarantee and even Clegg put out an election leaflet calling for one. None of them delivered it, voters stopped believing them, UKIP stepped into the void, Cameron panicked, promised one this time around and had to deliver.

The really scary thing is all those that want the result voted down by MPs. Ok, so parliament acts in what it thinks is the best interest of the people instead of the actual wishes of the people. What happens then? I figure a pretty large number of people who voted Leave are going to be majorly pissed off and Farage will step in saying "we told you they can't be trusted, elect us and we will invoke article 50 immediately".

You need a lot fewer votes to win a general election than voted Leave. Farage as PM? *shudder*

Totally agree on recall of MP's. Just googled it, they changed the law last year so we can rid of one who gets convicted of a criminal offence or barred from the HoC. I seem to remember they were saying you could do it through a petition with enough names on it. Guess that bit got left out

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Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:02 am View user's profile Send private message
Tenz
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Post Reply with quote
Well this is going well. Andrea Eagle challenges Corbyn and is banging on about "blah blah Tory scum, accidentally out of Europe, anti-austerity from magic money tree, blah blah" thus ignoring what 17 million people had to say, still having no clue where money comes from and banging the same old fucking drum that has made labour unelectable since before and after Blair.

Then the tories manage to make PM someone who systematically failed to limit immigration in her term as home secretary and voted against Brexit. That's like trusting Jimmy Saville with the hospital morgue key.

Given that a pretty big chunk of the population are pissed off over the politics and politicians of the last decade, the two main parties are going to adress that by just carrying on doing the same old shit.

If UKIP manage to survive they are going to have a fucking field day at the next election

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It's 106 miles to Naum, we've got a Skyguard, a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and the gunner's wearing sunglasses
Mon Jul 11, 2016 3:31 pm View user's profile Send private message
Kryokill
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Post Reply with quote
Since the turn of the 20th Century, half of our Prime Ministers have entered office without a general election.

Democracy my arse.

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Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:41 am View user's profile Send private message
Carter
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Joined: 06 Mar 2004
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Location: Get orf moy Laaaaaaaand!

Post Reply with quote
The common (and rather sad) response to this is "we don't vote for prime ministers".

Of course that is directly true due to the fptp voting system BUT in the century or so this country got a whole lot smaller (better education, transportation and communication etc) and local MPs have become less a consideration than "the party" that they represent. The only ones that count for anything are those in marginal seats.

Modern election campaigns (at least in my voting lifetime) have all been about the party and the leader and not about local candidates despite what they try to tell you.

Most of us dont get who we vote for and our majority govt are apparently elected on the basis of onky 1/3rd of all votes counted.

There's lots of wrongness in our electoral system sadly.

_________________
"OH NO! A BOURGEOIS BIG-BOLLOCKED BOILER!!!!! THATS ALL I NEED", Conker The Squirrel, 2001
www.raspberrypi.org
Oi may be from the West Coutry but i'm not a hobbit, a pirate or a farmer me old shagger
Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:14 pm View user's profile Send private message
Neonin
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Joined: 15 Nov 2006
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Location: Wolverhampton, UK

Post Reply with quote
So now we get Theresa "You Don't Need Privacy" May as PM, at least she's better than Michael "Fuck Your Education System" Gove.

This is what annoys me, taken from my local paper:

Quote:
After presenting herself as the unity candidate, Mrs May is expected to offer plum posts to leading figures from both the Remain and Leave camps from the EU referendum, in which she backed continued membership but kept a low profile.

Mr Osborne looks unlikely to stay on as Chancellor after the new PM trashed parts of his economic legacy, and is widely tipped to become Foreign Secretary in a potential job swap with Philip Hammond, who has long coveted the role at the Treasury.


Yep, cronyism continues. We're always going to be fucked because people have to offer "top jobs" to get people to support them and then can't consider who's actually the best candidate for the brief, it all falling to "Vote for me and you can be chancellor" or "Have this job because your dad was mates with mine at Eton."

Our new leader is Yet Another Oxford Graduate, although this one only got a second class degree in... geography. Right.

So we're going to get another millionaire as chancellor. Looking at his background he at least seems to have some form of business experience but seems to have jumped from employed to director in the space of four years. I want to work at a company that does that! Also another fucking Oxford politics/philosophy/economics degree graduate, cause none of those three is important enough to warrant its own degree of course...

Since Winston Churchill we've had thirteen Prime Ministers (including May) and ten of them went to Oxford.

Urgh this is why I don't talk about politics. Fuck 'em.
Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:16 pm View user's profile Send private message
Tenz
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Post Reply with quote
One of the reasons I want to see Trump as US president is because I'm curious what someone with actual, proper business experience will do with a major economy. Gordon Brown kept confusing government spending with the economy, Gideon never had any job remotely to do with running a business, and yet these fuckers got to run the 5th biggest economy in the world based on ideology.

The other reasons for wanting a Trump win are that he's a twat and it'll be funny (until he nukes China) and it'll properly piss off crooked Hilary if she can't beat the clown. Both US parties will be unhappy with him and it'll make the wankerati have actual meltdowns. Good times to be a hollywood shrink!

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Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:43 pm View user's profile Send private message
kingAmbulance
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Post Reply with quote
Tenz wrote:
One of the reasons I want to see Trump as US president is because I'm curious what someone with actual, proper business experience will do with a major economy.


Blow it, and us, all to fuck. UT

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Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:10 pm View user's profile Send private message
Tiger313
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Post Reply with quote
Tenz wrote:
One of the reasons I want to see Trump as US president *snip*


Time to dig a canal around Tenz's house and push it off into the Atlantic.
Like saying you want to see what it's like to have Stalin/Hitler/Mussolini in power. Trump is just as nuts.

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Mon Aug 01, 2016 11:13 pm View user's profile Send private message
Tenz
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Post Reply with quote
You fuckers have no sense of adventure do you?

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It's 106 miles to Naum, we've got a Skyguard, a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and the gunner's wearing sunglasses
Tue Aug 02, 2016 12:42 pm View user's profile Send private message
Tiger313
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Tenz wrote:
You fuckers have no sense of adventure do you?


I don't mind taking a calculated risk. Handing over the launch codes of several hundreds of ICBMs to a raving lunatic, who's only predictability is being unpredictable, is not my idea of an adventure. :P

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Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:37 pm View user's profile Send private message
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