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Brexit
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DodgeIt
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Post Brexit Reply with quote
Well... fuck.

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Fri Jun 24, 2016 8:26 am View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
FreedomShot
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Post Reply with quote
Terrible day. This was not supposed to happen...

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Fri Jun 24, 2016 5:55 pm View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail AIM Address Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger ICQ Number
BuggerLugs
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Post Reply with quote
It's a shame it has come to the point where most people are willing to vote out.

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Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:08 pm View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Carter
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Post Reply with quote
This will make it all better, always:

https://vimeo.com/169521261

Enjoy

And yes, depressing result but still the most democratic thing that I've taken part in!

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Oi may be from the West Coutry but i'm not a hobbit, a pirate or a farmer me old shagger
Fri Jun 24, 2016 9:43 pm View user's profile Send private message
Tenz
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Post Reply with quote
Incoming diatribe warning!! This went on rather too long, just read the last line

What really pissed me off during this whole sorry farce was most people didn't have a bloody clue about how the EU works and the people who were supposed to tell them, on both sides, were all so desperate to win they resorted to outright lies and fairytale promises.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_multilateral_free_trade_agreements

That is all the actual free trade areas currently running with a list of ones being proposed as well. None of them require a political union in the way the EU does. None of them needed a new flag, an anthem or a separate parliament. This is because the EU is far more than just a trading bloc. Up until now we have never been asked if we wanted more than a trading bloc.

NAFTA; USA, Canada & Mexico all trading freely with no political union. This is what the EU was supposed to be when my parents voted on it. This is clearly not what the EU is now.

The question distils into a fairly simple proposition. Because of the EU we are required to pay a price to trade freely with our European neighbours. We will trade with them regardless it's just a matter of cost. That price of free trade includes factors that are both economic and democratic. If you think that price is worth paying, vote Remain, if you think that price is too high vote Leave.

Forget immigration; it's a side issue that results from the loss of democratic control. The amount of immigration has become a rallying call instead of the more important underlying fact that we have no control over something that rather dramatically effects a lot of people in the UK (both for better and worse).

Forget financial armageddon; of the top 20 GDP countries in the world only 5 (soon to be 4) are in the EU and yet they all trade with the EU (and each other) anyway. Governments don't trade, people do. Governments just try and control it to make money from it.

I've seen a number of people, usually young and idealistic, from Remain say they are ashamed of their country for voting out. If that's the case, you didn't understand the question being put to you. If the answer was obvious, or easy to decide, we wouldn't have had a referendum in the first place.

If the country had voted to stay I would have fully understood why; economic stability and probably hope that the EU would change for the better.

However, we voted to leave and I fully understand that as well. France have over 60% wanting to leave, the Netherlands will leave if they get a referendum, Italy may go too. The EU is not a happy place.

There was so much bullshit in the run up to the vote. Remain used Project Fear and lost the plot entirely with it and Osborn's economically illiterate punishment budget was a fucking disgrace. Where is that tosser anyway, anyone seen him? Beuller?

Leave used immigration ruthlessly and that's because we cannot have a grown up discussion of it in this country. There's a fundamental problem with a vocal minority who simply cannot understand that you can like immigrants but not like uncontrolled immigration. They simply cannot, or will not understand the opinion that "immigrants are nice people but we simply have too many coming in".

Immigrants are just people wanting a better life but this is a small crowded island and we need controls to limit the numbers, or at least slow the influx while we catch up with building houses schools and hospitals they need. However if you express that opinion in public the vocal minority goes "you hate immigration, therefore you hate immigrants, therefore you are waaayyyycist!" and attempt to shut down the discussion immediately.

If you start calling someone racist, or a bigot, when they are not, they stop listening to you. This is why Labour voters ignored the party line. If too much immigration is affecting your quality of life and you try and raise the issue, Gordon Brown calls you 'just another bigoted woman'. The Tories are no better; Fruitcakes, loonies and closet racists eh Dave?

The rise of UKIP was entirely the fault of the main two parties ignoring their membership and it came back to bite them on the arse... hmm, is there a pattern there?

It gives me a great deal of satisfaction knowing that if Cameron had kept his 'cast-iron' promise for a referendum on the Lisbon treaty, made when he became Conservative leader, he wouldn't have had to resign. Lying prick got what he deserved.

More people voted to leave the EU than have ever voted for anything in British history and that is pretty amazing. However, only slightly fewer voted to stay and that, for those who now feel disenfranchised, is clearly upsetting.

Remember this though; those that run the EU absolutely did not want you to have a say on our membership of it and that for me is the best of reasons to leave.

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Last edited by Tenz on Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
Sat Jun 25, 2016 7:51 am View user's profile Send private message
brune
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Post Reply with quote
I was waiting for the Tenz wall of text!

My thought process was Remain = safe bet, we know where we're at.. it might improve it might get worse. Leave = Roll them dice and hope it's not snake eyes!

For me it's pretty disappointing and scary on a personal level, the construction/house building industry has only just climbed out of a nasty hole and now it would appear we could be possibly sucked back into it.

Job security is my concern over the next few years while the country stabalizes and finds it's feet.

I do think it will cause a domino effect though, as Tenz said, how long till the Frogs, Dutchies and Italians do the same. I think we just lit a big green light.

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Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:42 pm View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
BuggerLugs
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Post Reply with quote
I did read your rant in full, Tenz, and I pretty much agree with everything you have said

Are you holding out for retirement, Brune ? next few years ? eh ? eh ?

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Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:24 pm View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Tenz
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Post Reply with quote
Interesting times ahead.

- Boris is most likely to be PM as you can't have a pro-EU PM negotiating Brexit. The parliamentary Tories might stick Theresa May in anyway but that would just piss off the 70-75% of the membership that wants out. Boris has cross-party appeal but... I dunno.

- If Boris does win he'll probably call a general election for a new Brexit based mandate. The Tories only have a narrow margin though so.. iffy.

- Corbyn is about to be defenestrated by his shadow cabinet and if he isn't he has pretty much no hope of winning an election. But who will they replace him with? All the main candidates are pro-EU , pro-immigration and the Brexit Labour voters are hardly going to vote for more of what they just voted against. There was a Labour/Brexit voter on the news earlier who said "They keep telling me they understand but they do nothing about it". How is a pro-EU leader going to get those people to vote for them instead of Boris who will be telling them that he is the one to 'do something about it'?

- Junker, EU official with no voters to answer to, is making a lot of noise about getting it done quick. Merkel, who does have voters to answer to (next year!), is making conciliatory noises.

- 3million people have signed a petition to re-run the referendum. Interestingly it appears that over 39,000 of those signed it from Vatican City; population 800 Aint democracy grand?

- Sturgeon wants another referendum for Scotland. So despite the oil price having gone South since the last one, she wants Scotland to leave the UK and join the EU, an organisation that was already in economic trouble but has just lost the world's fifth-largest economy and third-largest military. Ok Nicola good luck with that one

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It's 106 miles to Naum, we've got a Skyguard, a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and the gunner's wearing sunglasses
Sun Jun 26, 2016 1:02 pm View user's profile Send private message
BuggerLugs
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Post Reply with quote
The real shitter: the EU is now probably considerably more likely to reform

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Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:39 pm View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Carter
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Post Reply with quote
BuggerLugs wrote:
The real shitter: the EU is now probably considerably more likely to reform


Well LEAVE spent 40yrs campaigning to go so...back in 40 yrs from now? If it still exists...

Don't forget, not everyone was happy last time either.

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Oi may be from the West Coutry but i'm not a hobbit, a pirate or a farmer me old shagger
Sun Jun 26, 2016 9:07 pm View user's profile Send private message
Tenz
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Post Reply with quote
I read an article yestarday that said the aim of negotiation should be make both parties happy. If that isn't possible, try and make both parties equally unhappy

Ideal result for the UK is full access to the free market without paying for any of the associated political bullshit attached to it and with full control of our borders. That aint gonna happen.

It is also unlikely that toys will get thrown out of the pram along with common sense because if no deal is agreed both sides end up paying full WTO tarrifs. No one wins a trade war and the EU would really start to hurt if it went down that route. Italy would be properly buggered for instance.

Personally I'd like to see a forceful UK leader aiming for a new free market agreement for all members but free of the politics. No one else does it but the EU is a political construct, not a practical one. Can you imagine if we said to Norway and Switzerland "Lets set up a new free market between us but without the political baggage". Then we turned round to the rest of the EU nations and propose they leave the bollocks behind and come join a proper free market? Yeah, I know, dream on.

Given the rather low standard of our current crop of politicians there is no vision there. No one to actually lead us forward. I can see a Switzerland style deal coming. We keep free market access, have to abide by some of the EU laws and free movement of labour; must have a job before coming here. At which point everyone on both isde throws up their hands and asks wtf the point of it all was.

Switzerland voted a while back to cap the amount of 'free movement' and it has to be implemented fairly soon and the EU has yet to address it. That might be enough to keep people quiet. Equally unhappy on both sides

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Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:48 pm View user's profile Send private message
brune
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Post Reply with quote
What's wrong with a world where Donald Trump is President of the United States and Boris "my bufoonery is an elaborate ploy" Johnson is Prime Minister of the UK.....oh wait

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Mon Jun 27, 2016 7:41 pm View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Kryokill
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Post Reply with quote
Woy for PM!

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Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:16 am View user's profile Send private message
Carter
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Post Reply with quote
Whats rather sad, and unsurprising, is the polarising of political views in this country over the last few years.

If nothing else though at least it will hopefully mean a Tory party who no longer pretend to give a shit and a Labour party that is actually a Labour party and not made up of pretend Tories,

This should then open up room for other opinions in parliament...but then our voting system doesn't easily allow for that, does it.

By rights UKIP should vanish from memory now they got what they wanted, but they won't will they, they'll just keep on harping on about "their win" for years and years.

Disenfranchised Tory voters? Check. Tea Party equivalents? Probably. Labour not listening to their voters? Check.

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"OH NO! A BOURGEOIS BIG-BOLLOCKED BOILER!!!!! THATS ALL I NEED", Conker The Squirrel, 2001
www.raspberrypi.org
Oi may be from the West Coutry but i'm not a hobbit, a pirate or a farmer me old shagger
Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:31 pm View user's profile Send private message
Kryokill
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Post Reply with quote
We are fucked either way, so pointless even arguing or talking about it. So I'm going to.

Either we end up with that Trump haired buffon and/or pog faced fuckwit as PM, the article 50 gets sent in, and we are stuck on an independent island with them fucking degenerates bumbling about with no actual post-Brexit plan. Not to mention we'll have the economy of Greece, and gangs of scrotes roaming the street beating up brown people. We'll we get told to shut up and put up, even more manipulated, and we have nobody else to turn to

OR

The Tories elect somebody who isn't a total dickbrain, the article 50 gets revoked, we stay in the EU and the vote of the people goes unheard. I voted to stay...however, I would rather leave the EU than have this happen. People are free to vote for who/whatever they want, and use whatever reason they want, no matter how much of a cunt it makes them. This is free will, the thing we have always been promised. Anything other than this is nothing short of tyrannical.

Congratulations, rich and powerful folk. You've won. Again.

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Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:31 am View user's profile Send private message
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